Forever Changed: an interview with pianist and composer Nat Bartsch
The restaurant was crowded and the ambient noise level high with the sound of clattering dishes, boisterous conversations, and the persistent thump-thump-thump of a loud bass line. I barely noticed it, focusing instead on choosing what I wanted to eat. My lunch date, however, lasted ten minutes before she told me she either had to leave the restaurant or start screaming. She didn’t mean this metaphorically. This was my first glimpse of how challenging it can be to navigate a neurotypical world as a neurodivergent individual.
Award-winning Australian composer and pianist Nat Bartsch discovered her own neurodiversity as an adult, and this awareness changed her relationship with music—both as a listener and as a creator. Her latest album, Forever Changed, is a collection of lullabies written for neurodivergent individuals and it reflects her musical life as a newly diagnosed AuDHD artist and mother. While creating the pieces on this record, she studied her own responses to music, as well as interviewing music therapists who work with autistic clients and other neurodivergent people. What she discovered allowed her to create lullabies that resonate with (and possibly even regulate) the neurodivergent community by exploring the needs and preferences that ND people can have in music, both as listeners and as concert goers.
Forever Changed may have been created for the neurodivergent community, but these gorgeous pieces are for everyone, regardless of where we fall on the spectrum. Perhaps it’s because of how powerfully this music bypasses surface differences and gets at the common emotional ground we all share. When composer and pianist Garreth Brooke recommended that I listen to Forever Changed, I knew immediately that I wanted to introduce Nat Bartsch and her music to my fellow music lovers on No Dead Guys. I’m honored that she said yes.
When did you first begin playing the piano and what drew you to the instrument?
I began playing the piano at the age of four, through group classes at the local Yamaha Music School, which was attached to a piano store where my grandfather worked part time (later on, I worked with Papa after high school, selling pianos together!)
My mother and grandfather were pianists and so it was an instrument that was offered to me automatically. I don’t think I ever thought or asked to learn anything else!
I love the enormous amount of color, texture and range you can get from a piano, as well as how “grid like” and instantaneous creating sound at the instrument can be. I think that appealed to my impatient busy brain; I was never going to be the type of kid who’d be practicing long tones at the saxophone or refining my violin intonation for hours!
At what age did you begin composing music, and what was your first piece?
I started composing music in preparation for auditioning for the jazz degree at the Victorian College of the Arts (in Melbourne, Australia) about 20 years ago. Often jazz courses are very much focused around playing jazz standards, ie. from the great American songbook. The VCA course is unique in that from 2nd year onwards, it expected students to bring in our own compositions, but in a very relaxed way where we weren’t required to apply certain compositional devices or learn orchestration or theory. This was perfect for me, because it helped me find my own “voice” more quickly.
My first composition was called “Kerryn’s Song,” and it was a spacious jazz ballad that I wrote for my boyfriend’s mother, who was undergoing cancer treatment. It’s funny to reflect upon how I’ve grown as an artist yet not actually strayed that far from the intention and aesthetic of this song! I still write meditative music with the intention to soothe others, more than 15 years later.
You have a solid classical and jazz background, yet you write music that sits in the space between genres. Why do you feel this best suits your compositional style?
Growing up learning classical music I found the repetitiveness of the practice a little boring, even though I also found a lot of comfort in the structure of notated classical music. I was drawn to the harmony and improvisation of jazz, although once I started a degree and was practicing standards, I found this era of music didn’t resonate with me. I also found practicing improvisation with leadsheets quite anxiety-producing! If I could play anything, where should I start?! There are also many barriers in the jazz scene for women; it can often be a bit of a “boys club” and I think this is also reflected in the heritage of the genre—borne out of jamming, “cutting the changes,” it often felt very muscular, almost masculine, which didn’t feel like “me.” I developed RSI and eventually a chronic pain condition, which meant I couldn’t play in that way, nor practice a huge amount; it was through composition, and embracing my love of ambient, spacious music, that allowed me to express myself in my own way.
It was when neoclassical piano became popular that I began to consider my love of ostinatos and how I might be able to use these as a foundation for improvisation rather than simply creating a lead sheet. It meant that I was able to improvise in my own unique way, and I felt a lot of comfort in basing my improvising around minimalistic patterns. Instead of focusing on harmonic complexities as an improviser, I focus on creating rhythmic tension between a steady ostinato and lyrical melody (also makes it easier to generate ambience). But, I also love applying modal jazz harmony to classical compositions, creating a few “surprises” for the listener, and I never play a piece the same way twice because of my jazz training, which is very special to me.
I always felt like a “fish out of water” in the jazz and classical scenes, and so by creating my own thing between genres, I feel more comfortable. Having said this, I’ve had to learn to be at peace with not being as welcome in some corners of the jazz and classical communities (for example, I’ve never performed at the leading jazz festivals in Australia, despite being in the scene for 15 years and releasing ARIA-nominated jazz albums!). The price you pay for being “outside the box” as an artist is that you have to do a lot more work designing and creating opportunities for your music, rather than having pathways laid out for you. You also have to do more work branding and marketing, ensuring your music is understood and listened to by the public and industry.
Congratulations on your successful, multi-faceted career, which includes 8 albums, international tours, and 2 ARIA nominations, in addition to establishing Amica Records, your own record label. Who or what inspired you to successfully pursue so many career paths?
Actually I just released my ninth album! It should be pointed out here that I have been composing and recording my original music now for 20 years, so on average I wouldn’t say it’s a hugely prolific output; I’ve just kept it up for many years.
I have always been very driven person, and because of my own struggles to navigate life and my own well-being before discovering my neurodiversity, music was a place where I could express myself and be unique. Wearing many “hats” as an artist is almost required these days, thanks to the changes in economic models used in the music industry. But my portfolio career is also important because it appeals to my ADHD brain; I need to do lots of different things to feel happy within myself.
Amica Records was the product of a long period evaluating the type of recording artist I wanted to be. I value autonomy and flexibility in my music making; not being pigeon-holed or restricted in my output, and how/when/with whom I create.
Amica means “friend” in Latin, and the label is for “kind” music, rather than a specific genre, which obviously reflects my approach to music. But, it’s also a label that is supporting other artists who create in the space between genres, but have the same kind of intention with their music as I do.
One of the things that impressed me about Amica Records is your commitment to helping other musicians through Amica Familia. What can you tell me about this program?
I started out supplementing my performing/composing work with piano teaching (like most pianists!), and while I’ve loved doing that, over time I began to work as a mentor for emerging artists and particularly love doing this, where what I can offer is really needed and harder to find.
I have observed over time that most musicians, particularly those who come from a Conservatorium environment or a self-taught “bedroom producer” background, struggle enormously with the real world demands of the music industry.
In elite music institutions, I find this particularly frustrating. I suppose when the goal is produce graduates who can perform or compose at the absolute highest leve, there isn’t much space or time allocated to teaching young artists the other skills required to have a successful career. Amica Familia means “friendly family” and it’s a place where musicians can upskill whatever gaps they have in their skillset, ask any question no matter how embarrassingly basic, and also just not feel so alone as they navigate projects as an independent artist.
Amica Familia is also run by my partner and audio engineer Hadyn Buxton. Between us we are able to cover almost all aspects of working in the music industry from audio production to composition, marketing, project and career planning, spatial audio and more.
Familia is in its first year, and so far we’ve supported around 20 artists from various genres and career stages, in Australia and overseas. It’s just been one-on-one online sessions, but in 2025 we are looking forward to offering some small group and in-person sessions, and really try and create a sense of community, various low-cost ways of upskilling and learning.
You refer to yourself as being “proudly neurodivergent” and have shared that you discovered this about yourself as an adult. How did your diagnosis change your relationship with music, and how do you feel it shaped your career pre-diagnosis?
My diagnosis has been one of the most transformative and positive experiences of my life! And I’m certainly not the only one who is on this journey of discovery, there are a lot of late-diagnosed autistic and ADHD women, and musicians like me, out there.
Looking back I realise now that a neurodivergent brain is the reason for my career successes – my laser-like focus and determination, my entrepreneurial way of thinking, the audacity to be outside the box, the big emotions that lead to soothing music, the intuitive way I compose. But it’s also an explanation for a lot of struggles I’ve had for many years in my life behind-the-scenes. Neurodiversity is sometimes characterized as a ‘superpower’ and I agree with this, but it’s only when our needs are met that we can enjoy our unique talents and abilities and not just be in survival mode getting through the day in a neurotypical world.
So discovering my identity, and discovering my unique sensory and daily living needs, has allowed me to create strategies and find support to manage everything better and thrive as an artist. I’m also just so much calmer, and happier, every day.
Congratulations on the release of your latest album, Forever Changed, which you describe as a suite of neoclassical lullabies that explore the neurodivergent sensory experience of music. What elements do you feel neurodivergent people find most meaningful in music and how did you employ these things in these lullabies?
While my first lullaby album, Forever, and No Time At All, was influenced by music therapy research to help soothe babies and their parents, Forever Changed represents my new phase of life as a newly diagnosed AuDHD artist and mother. So these lullabies are focused on trying to resonate with (and possibly even regulate) the neurodivergent community, by exploring the needs and preferences that ND people can have in music, both as a listener and as a concert goer.
Obviously every neurodivergent person is different (just like every baby is different!), so I could never have created an album that’s a panacea for everyone. But, I tried to collect a suite of compositional and production parameters that were inspired by interviews with music therapists who work with autistic clients, and neurodivergent people themselves. Combining this with a consideration of my own listening habits in music, I realized that many ND folks find quite detailed, multi-layered and “sensory seeking” music soothing: grounding rhythms, repetitive patterns, textured ambience, high-pitched melodies, a wall of sound. This makes sense, considering that when I need soothing I’m not turning to slow, meditative solo piano, I’m listening to Floating Points, Jon Hopkins, Meshuggah or John Adams!
Both the album and performances have been designed in immersive audio (atmos and live multi-channel surround sound). They are still based around simple, meditative piano pieces, but also heavily feature synths, ambient effects (including some crunchy/glitchy granular synthesis and high pitched black hole reverbs), synth arpeggiators and pads, harp and strings. I describe it as “music you can soak in.” I’m pleased to have received a lot of special feedback from other AuDHD people about the music who say it calms and soothes them! Hooray!
Even though I’m neurotypical, every track on Forever Changed pulled me deeply into myself and into a meditative state. What can you tell me about the way you balance repetitive patterns, spaciousness, and a sense of open-ended questions?
One of the benefits, I think, to having a lot of big feelings, and needing to make sense of this complex world, as a neurodivergent, has been the way that I want to channel these emotions into the way I compose and play piano. Many years ago I started practising mindfulness and lovingkindness, two meditation approaches from Buddhism, which helped me be in the moment, accept and embrace things as they are, and try and meet others where they are at. I suppose this has found its way into my music, and particularly in my albums Hope and Forever Changed, where I want to create a musical space where all emotions, needs and thoughts are valid.
Ever since my first compositions I’ve been influenced by spacious ECM jazz artists, the ostinatos found in folk, minimalism and indie rock, the syrupy sounds found in ambience, post rock and neoclassical music. I’d like to think I somehow tie this stuff together, with a sprinkling of jazz harmony, and that this might appeal to a broad listenership of all neurotypes. I’m thrilled that you love the album!
One of my favorite tracks on Forever Changed is “Fizzy Feelings,” which for me evoked a sense of effervescence leading to a feeling of taking flight. How much of this was composed prior to recording and how much was improvised?
This is a great question! Most of the pieces I record have an element of improvisation in them, but some begin with a pre-determined piano ostinato and melody, at least. With “Fizzy Feelings” I was approaching it more from a production/sound design mindset—the piano is double tracked. The ripply chords you first hear are simply a collection of jazz chords that I created a particular rhythmic ripple to improvise through. I then overdubbed the melody I’d composed; and then layered string parts, improvised synth pads and lots of swirly ambient effects. I was particularly thinking about the immersive experience of the music, having sounds panning around in 360 degrees, really helping bring the listener back down to earth if they have big “fizzy” feelings.
Taking flight is such a lovely description! I think you might be referring to the key change and “grand” chords at the end, which kind of come out of nowhere and hopefully help the piece have a sense of resolution.
Another favorite track is “New Kinds of Love” which grew organically from a simple pattern to an open-ended sense of discovery by the end of the piece. Why did you feel the piece was stronger without a grounded sense of resolution?
This piece is another big, multi-tracked epic, like “Fizzy Feelings.” But this one is a very special piece about the beautiful experience of re-partnering and stepping into a new family life with my son and his new stepdad. But, also within that story is going through the difficult process of change and divorce, needing a lot of patience and courage, going through periods of uncertainty, challenge and grief. The ending of the piece, which is a little more open-sounding, and darker, is an acknowledgement of these other sides of the experience, and the enormity of it all.
People often associate neoclassical music with perhaps a simplicity of emotion; the trope of the “sad pianist,” or the positivity associated with being on some kind of “music for yoga/study/coffee houses” playlist or whatever.
I like to think of the genre, and my music in particular, as representing a more nuanced or duality of emotions, of “radical acceptance” of all the feelings. If I were to simplify it I’d say it’s “happy-sad” music!
I understand that the launch of Forever Changed included “relaxed performances to support the neurodivergent and disabled audiences.” How do these differ from traditional performances?
I’m not sure how familiar international audiences and venues are with the concept of relaxed performances, but in Australia they have existed for a while. They create an opportunity for people to enjoy a live performance who might not otherwise be able to make it due to accessibility or sensory needs. Relaxed shows provide access supports for disabled and neurodivergent people, such as a social story/access guide to help you prepare to attend, a quiet space you can go to if overwhelmed, reduced audience capacity, lower-sensory sound and lighting settings, and generally creating a vibe where it’s OK to move around, come late, leave early, make noise, be yourself. I think this is especially needed for classical music concerts which are often so “stuffy” and conservative, and for rock/electronic/heavy music events which can be so loud.
Unfortunately it is often only major venues and organizations who seem to think about, or have the capacity, to offer relaxed performances, and often they are an adjustment to a “regular” performance, a little token-istic, and only offered as a daytime matinee (which prevents working neurodivergent/disabled people from attending). This is understandable when there is a higher cost to offering shows like this, with fewer tickets to sell.
My live shows of Forever Changed have been designed as a Relaxed performance at the heart of the project (my “general” show is the add on!) The show has some high quality sensory lighting, video projections, comfortable beanbags and fidget tools and is particularly considering ND adults and families, for whom an 11am show on a Tuesday is not going to work. My show was designed in consultation with ND people, and previewed to an ND audience before the launch, so I’d like to think it is meaningfully supportive of the community who might come along. I’m very grateful to have had the support of Melbourne Recital Centre, as Artist-in-Residence last year, to be able to present the show in such a high-level way. Now, I’m working on a scalable version that will be able to be performed anywhere, from a school classroom or community centre, to a major theatre or purpose-built spatial audio venue.
What do you hope neurotypical people will be able to experience about the neurodiverse understanding of music through listening to this album?
I hope the album helps raise awareness of the diversity of needs and preferences neurodivergent people have, in music and in general; to help others to think about their sensory experiences, to normalize advocating for and accommodating accessibility, and to promote a really neuro-affirming, positive view of neurodiversity. I think this might be especially helpful for people who are learning to understand/accept late-diagnosed ND family members, friends or co-workers (as well as, of course, neurodivergent folks themselves!)
What current and future projects are you most excited about?
I’m very excited to be heading to Classical Next in May, in Berlin, to pitch Forever Changed in the international market as well as hopefully doing a couple of shows in the UK and Europe while I’m there. I’m equally excited about performing some community shows here in Melbourne, and hopefully connecting with more neurodivergent folks who might not be getting out to see live music otherwise.
I have a couple of special commissions coming up as a jazz composer, and supporting some amazing new artists through Amica Records with album releases and mentoring.
What advice can you offer young musicians who seek to create a career for themselves in music?
Be prepared for a life that isn’t how you think it is: you will work constantly, and do more things away from your instrument than you expect. You’ll have to upskill in more areas than you can count, and compromise and adapt the way you do things, in order to bring projects to life and build a career that is economically sustainable. Don’t just learn how to compose, perform or produce high quality music; also learn how to write fancy words, speak confidently (with strangers, on a microphone, on air), record from home, have a healthy relationship with social media, learn how to plan, budget, manage your files, look after yourself. This stuff sounds so boring and benign, but without these skills, building a career is so hard (I learned this the hard way after graduation… and burned out many times because there was so much to learn).
Don’t be afraid to change the way you create, or what you create, just because you learned music a certain way, or in a certain community or institution. Try to resist the urge to create music to fit a certain genre or trend, or to get on a playlist… be authentic to who you are. More than 100,000 tracks are released on Spotify everday (not including the fake AI artists)—you will never cut through creating music that isn’t you. Be yourself, learn how to articulate and promote this to the public in a way that feels meaningful and authentic to you. When you’re lying on your deathbed, I’d like to think that means you look back on the work you created, and you’ll feel a sense of pride in the music you’re leaving behind, and the experiences you created for others. But also, I reckon more people will be drawn to your music because it’s from the heart… not the head.
Nat Bartsch is a critically-acclaimed pianist, composer, producer and neurodiversity advocate from Melbourne, Australia. Her meditative, lyrical music defies the conventions of genre and is enjoyed by people from all walks of life - often in profoundly personal moments, such as childbirth and death.
Nat has released nine albums of original music including for ABC Classic and Jazz, and recently established her own record label, Amica Records for genre-bending, kind music. She is most well-known for her lullaby album Forever, and No Time At All, designed for adults to enjoy as well as children; and recently released her critically-acclaimed follow up album, Forever Changed, which celebrates the discovery of her autistic/ADHD identity and explores neurodivergent sensory needs in music.
Nat is well known for moving effortlessly between genres, blending their characteristics, and re-interpreting and re-arranging her compositions. This approach was first shown in her jazz ARIA-nominated lullaby reinterpretation album, Forever More. But her genre transformations are most evident in her 2021 classical ARIA-nominated album Hope – a suite of pieces responding to the Black Summer bushfires and covid lockdowns of 2020. First released as neoclassical album for piano, string quartet and electronics, Hope was re-recorded as Hope Renewed in 2022 as a jazz/post-rock epic. Nat arranged and recorded the momentous title track, Hope, for symphony orchestra in 2023, and has performed the music in multiple iterations including a simplified version for community/emerging string players.
Nat is one of a small handful of artists to be nominated in both jazz and classical ARIA categories, as well as receiving AIR, Music Victoria and Bell Award nominations, and many other prizes and scholarships. She holds an Honours degree in jazz improvisation from the VCA and a Masters degree in classical composition from Melbourne Conservatorium of Music. In 2023 she received the APRA-AMCOS Art Music Award for Jazz Work of the Year for her work Busy/Quiet. This year, Nat is Artist-in-Residence at Melbourne Recital Centre.
Nat has composed commissions for many leading classical ensembles including Grigoryan Brothers, Alicia Crossley, Plexus Collective, Inventi Ensemble, Matt Withers & Sally Whitwell and Muses Trio. As a performer, she has collaborated with artists including Vince Pope, Luke Howard, Teeny Tiny Stevies, Back to Back Theatre, Whitaker and Playschool. She has performed across Australia and abroad for more than 15 years.
Nat is proudly neurodivergent, and advocates for fellow autistic/ADHD musicians and audiences. She regularly mentors emerging artists in both jazz and classical music scenes. She is published by Origin Music, an AMC Associate Composer, a Yamaha artist, and represented by Cabin Artists (EU/UK/Asia) and Tom Ohsawa (Japan). She is embarking on a PhD at Melbourne Conservatorium of Music in 2025.
“Her beautiful piano playing shimmers with a joyfulness that she also conveys in person” Limelight
“Listening to Bartsch’s music is akin to feeling a reassuring hand resting on one’s shoulder” The Age
“You feel as if she’s opening her heart and speaking via the keyboard to you personally” Textura
“Bartsch creates a space inside her music to simply be, to allow silence and gentleness to reign”. Scenestr
“Every note is chosen with the utmost love and care” Benjamin Northey
www.natbartsch.com
www.amicarecords.com
Live performance photo by Maria Colaidis
Album cover photo by Kristoffer Paulsen